How could a TIN alone be used elsewhere?

You can use it with banks, pretending to be resident in that country, but you would also have to produce a proof of residence.
Banks rely on your declaration, they don’t have a way to check where you really reside.

BTW the TIN is just a string of text/numbers. If you know the format, you don’t even need to obtain it for real, just create one yourself.
For example, the Italian TIN (codice fiscale) can be created on many websites. One such websites: Calcolo Codice Fiscale Estero - ProfessioneGiustizia.it
There are ways to check if the person is really registered with the tax office, but rarely banks go through such hassle.

A TIN and some photoshop is all what it takes to trick banks :D

I always used to stick the tin in EMI's -> the country wasn't part of CRS at the time, and they don't tax offshore wealth/funds/activity.

I doubt they check its just automated, probably be funny if you find someone with similar initials, and use their tin ha ha

uranium08 said:

In some countries, including territorial-tax ones, a tourist can obtain TIN. I've obtain a few from some - they won't hurt.
I don't have residencies in those countries.

Can a TIN ALSO be used ELSEWHERE, rather then in the country itself? For even some banks will allow you to self-assess your tax residency.
Where and how else?

JohnnyDoe said:

BTW the TIN is just a string of text/numbers. If you know the format, you don’t even need to obtain it for real, just create one yourself.
For example, the Italian TIN (codice fiscale) can be created on many websites. One such websites: Calcolo Codice Fiscale Estero - ProfessioneGiustizia.it
There are ways to check if the person is really registered with the tax office, but rarely banks go through such hassle.

That works for a codice fiscale because there is a formula for creating one based on your name and place of birth, etc. You can predictably invent one and it will be true to the one that is issued from AdE. This is not true for a US SSN or Canadian SIN. Though those have some correlation to place of birth, it’s not reliable nor predictable. The uses are a bit different across the three, as well, so you can run into pitfalls.

The CF is ideal for this sort of thing, since you know how to make exactly what yours would be, there is little risk of making another person’s by mistake, and the way it is used they don’t check if it’s actually assigned. On the other hand, it’s free to get an actual one just by writing a letter and a form to the local Italian consulate. You’ll have it in a week, most times.

A SSN is a different matter. It’s almost certain to be flagged somewhere if invalid, but there is little the US government can or will do about it. Legally, it’s not supposed to be used for identification or anything but social security tax withholdings. Practically, it is misused that way and is easily checked against databases for validity, but that legal gray area means there is little legal remedy for misusing one outside of tax enforcement.

SINs appear to have limited use, although I’m a bit new to this one. It’s more like an Italian Tessera Sanitaria. You provide one to a company if you’re employed by them and there is probably some self-employment usage, and it allows access to socialized health care. It does not seem to be used like a CF or SSN for random things like leases or car rentals.

Other tax IDs, like Armenian INN, I’ve not used outside of company formation and tax reporting.

The CF formula is on the Wikipedia page should one be curious.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code

JohnnyDoe said:

BTW the TIN is just a string of text/numbers. If you know the format, you don’t even need to obtain it for real, just create one yourself.
For example, the Italian TIN (codice fiscale) can be created on many websites. One such websites: Calcolo Codice Fiscale Estero - ProfessioneGiustizia.it
There are ways to check if the person is really registered with the tax office, but rarely banks go through such hassle

I actually had to get the Italian Codice Fiscale for myself. I just followed what the Italian company told me, contacted Italian embassy in Paraguay (where I reside) and within 24 hours had an official Italian ID.

Mercado4 said:

I actually had to get the Italian Codice Fiscale for myself. I just followed what the Italian company told me, contacted Italian embassy in Paraguay (where I reside) and within 24 hours had an official Italian ID.

Welcome to hell 😈

Mercado4 said:

I actually had to get the Italian Codice Fiscale for myself. I just followed what the Italian company told me, contacted Italian embassy in Paraguay (where I reside) and within 24 hours had an official Italian ID.

Mine took a week because I opted to have the plastic card mailed from Rome. For just a CF with no card, the local consulate claims turnaround in 24-48 hours. Online reports say some consulates don’t issue them or are very slow (months) to issue them. I filled out the form and included a letter explaining that I needed it for a court case in Italy. There are a list of valid reasons for requesting one, but basically any kind of visa or even an upcoming tourist visit and a claim that you need to rent a car are sufficient.

Canada mailed my SIN in an official letter, oddly. Usually they issue it online through your My Service Canada Account. Canada did away with the plastic cards in 2013 and moved to an entirely (or almost, apparently) digital system.

The US still issues the paper cards for the SSN. I’m not sure what they do for ITINs but it’s probably a letter. The US absolutely is in last place among the three for how they handle this process.

Mercado4 said:

I actually had to get the Italian Codice Fiscale for myself. I just followed what the Italian company told me, contacted Italian embassy in Paraguay (where I reside) and within 24 hours had an official Italian ID.

Is there a good reason why you had to obtain a real CF?

I would avoid whenever possible to obtain a real TIN, in any country, if you have an alternative, including creating it yourself.

M

Marty McFly said:

Is there a good reason why you had to obtain a real CF?

Mine are linked to citizenships as part of a basic document package for each country. Or, something I needed for a specific business venture in a specific country.

JohnnyDoe said:

I would avoid whenever possible to obtain a real TIN, in any country, if you have an alternative, including creating it yourself.

Why? How would it hurt you? No tax, nor of any other type, obligations even if obtained, provided that you don't become a tax resident of the country.

Let's say, you provided a TIN to some agent or bank which you drew yourself. A fake one. After a single or a few reports sent to a country, wouldn't a bank or agent find out that your TIN was fake? Wouldn't a country reply "wrong TIN, it doesn't belong to him"?

Or even "a TIN is real but it still doesn't belong to him" :D

virgen_del_rosario said:

Why? How would it hurt you? No tax, nor of any other type, obligations even if obtained, provided that you don't become a tax resident of the country.

You enter in the system. This is something you want to avoid, you never know what the future will bring.

virgen_del_rosario said:

Let's say, you provided a TIN to some agent or bank which you drew yourself. A fake one. After a single or a few reports sent to a country, wouldn't a bank or agent find out that your TIN was fake?

No

virgen_del_rosario said:

Wouldn't a country reply "wrong TIN, it doesn't belong to him"?

Very very unlikely.

virgen_del_rosario said:

Or even "a TIN is real but it still doesn't belong to him" :D

This should never be done: it's a crime to steal someone's identity (which includes the TIN).

I fully agree that if they don’t know you exist, they can’t come after you. There is no sense in unnecessary exposure. If you do need a TIN, though, are you more likely to get jammed up by getting a real one and being flagged or selected for an audit or getting flagged for using a false one?

JohnnyDoe said:

This should never be done: it's a crime to steal someone's identity (which includes the TIN).

You'd draw a TIN which might accidentaly match someone else's.

Paratore said:

I fully agree that if they don’t know you exist, they can’t come after you.

What are the downsides then? For in some places you'll required to provide a TIN, whether in the same country or abroad.

Paratore said:

I fully agree that if they don’t know you exist, they can’t come after you. There is no sense in unnecessary exposure. If you do need a TIN, though, are you more likely to get jammed up by getting a real one and being flagged or selected for an audit or getting flagged for using a false one?

It depends on the use case and on the country involved. For example, if you just need the tin for a bank, there’s virtually no risk in using a fake one.

virgen_del_rosario said:

You'd draw a TIN which might accidentaly match someone else's.

In some countries the TIN format might allow for this remote eventuality.
In Italy it’s impossible.

JohnnyDoe said:

In some countries the TIN format might allow for this remote eventuality.
In Italy it’s impossible.

Highly improbable, but possible, for someone with a common name born abroad in a country of 350 million people due to the Z designation for foreign birth. Effectively impossible for Italian born, though.

It depends on the use case and on the country involved. For example, if you just need the tin for a bank, there’s virtually no risk in using a fake one.

True, it’s probably highly variable. From my understanding, the CF isn’t considered sensitive personally identifying information in the same way as the SSN or SIN and is provided more broadly since it can be transparently calculated. The SPID seems to be used more like a SSN in the US is used for identity verification. Even then, the IRS and SSA don’t seem to care that Mexicans are passing around fraudulent social security numbers and ten different employers are paying in on the same number simultaneously. There are about 200 countries, each with its own tax system, and probably as many different ways of doing it.

What are the downsides then? For in some places you'll required to provide a TIN, whether in the same country or abroad.

Don’t get one unless it’s needed? To stay off the radar until it’s worth putting yourself on the radar? Common sense. If you need one? Probably situationally dependent as above. All things equal, if I’m going to pop up on their screen for some reason, I’d rather avoid the false TIN being the first reason and also not give them a second hook to find if they start digging. I do understand the other point of view, though. Zebra versus porcupine philosophy.

Marty McFly said:

Is there a good reason why you had to obtain a real CF?

I am a nominee director for a company operating in Italy and they had wanted me to get the Namirial digital signature software. Namirial had demanded I get a CF prior to them signing me up.